Invicta Confirms That Their ‘Natural Sandstone” Dials Are Man Made

August 31, 2010

UPDATE 09/14/2010: Invicta II Men’s Diver “Sandstone Material” dial as it is now being described, is going for $83.21 and three value pays of $27.74.

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UPDATE 09/09/2010: After a week and half, Team Invicta responded to the origin of their “Natural Sandstone” dials confirming what we already know – that they’re about as natural as Pergo wood floors.

“After speaking extensively with numerous experts, there seems to be confusion between the term Sandstone as used in jewelry and sandstone the raw dessert like sand material found in nature. What we are using is absolutely sandstone as known in the jewelry world and is considered a gemstone. That is why when you search the term “sandstone Jewelry” or look at all other vendors you will find a broad selection of jewelry with the same material used as in our sandstone dials. Many stones are modified, bonded, compressed, heated, dyed, bombarded, etc., for use in jewelry. The main reason being one of hardness, since in order to cut semiprecious stones for jewelry or dials you need a minimum hardness of 5-6. Some stones are rare and turned to dust and then compressed with natural, others have a tradition of going by the wrong gemological name such as black onyx which is also dyed black Agatha. No one sells Ruby as a chemical compound (mineral) and tell you its pure aluminum oxide. No one sells Lapis as a Rock, or a diamond as carbon.
These stones have natural properties, not manmade, but have been processed to achieve the hardness required and/or change or enhance their look. We stand by our sandstone, a stone from natural elements, processed to achieve 5-6 hardness and it is not to be compared with raw sandstone which is too porous and soft for use in jewelry
A gemologist explained it as follow: Sandstone in the Jewelry industry is a sedimentary rock composed of tiny grains of quartz or feldspar. It can be any color, but is most commonly tan, brown, yellow, red, grey or white. The color is usually dependent on the region in which the stone was found. Sandstones are formed by cemented grains of small fragments of pre-existing rock or crystals and are usually bound together by calcite, clays or silica. The sedimentation process occurs when sand grains are bounced along the bottom of a body of water or ground surface, resulting in a pressure compacted mixture. Because sandstone widely varies in its creation, its hardness widely varies as well.
I think that no answer is ever going to satisfy everyone, I appreciate the passion. If anything this has been very educational – I am sure there is no other brand out there that gets so personal and detailed about a component of a watch… I’m happy to do it – if this is not commitment, I don’t know what is.”

Uncle Lalo still didn’t address the lack of discernible depth and that only three “crystal” images are arranged in a repeating pattern. But I suppose the ardent – at this point seemingly moronic – über fans will find this response enough.

—————————————————-

UPDATE 09/05/2010: I was able to find out a few more details regarding specifics on the dial. First, the actual thickness of the dial confirms that it is not a slab of sandstone. It is 10 nanometers thick. The thinest that the professor has ever saw sandstone cut is 30 nanometers.

The dial may not even contain natural sand. Looking at it under a microscope reveals that the shiny bits have no dimensionality; not appearing as three dimensional pieces, instead lacking any discriminable depth. Like the difference between a hardwood floor and a laminate. One is the real, three dimensional object that includes the grains. The laminate is a pictorial representation of the same thing.

Also of note is that there are only three distinct shapes that all of the crystalline structures share. In natural sand, the variation approaches the infinite.

These two facts seem to even contradict Eyal Lalo’s statement that actual sand was used in the manufacture of these dials.

THERE is still no explanation from Invicta.

——————————————————
UPDATE 09/01/2010: Invicta CEO Eyal Lalo semingly confirmed that the dials marketed as “Natural Sandstone” are in fact anything but. He posted two statements this morning on watchgeeks.net:
“The ONLY thing that is man-made is the process of bonding the sandstone grain to a brick like raw bar, which then gets sent to our dial factory and gets cut to dials and polished.” He added “I wrote: “bonding the sandstone grain to a brick like raw bar”
The correct wording would be “bonding the sandstone grain INTO a brick like raw bar”. The sandstone garins do NOT get bonded to something else, it just gets bonded ALL TOGETHER.”

In his second statement, he’s admitting the sand is bonded onto a medium and a dial is cut from it. This is NOT natural sandstone! This is a composition mimicing sandstone and he is admiting as much.

The name of the geologist mentioned below has been passed to Jim Skelton for further discussion of his findings; his identity is not being made public at his request.

——————————————————-
ON this last day of August, the Invicta Watch Group did not disappoint by offering up the trifecta scandal to end the summer of 2010 that has seen a major debacle every month. This time it is the apparent bogus claim of natural sandstone dials.

THIS investigation was initiated by a member of Watchlords, GEEKNOMO, a disillusioned former member of Watch Geeks who obtained a sample from his model 0050, Invicta II Blue Sandstone with Diamond accents. He believed all along, based on color and a close inspection, that it appeared to be a man-made material. After attempting to burn it he felt that it was actually a type of glass. Upon further research, he settled on the conclusion that it was aventurine glass. While I never doubted his belief that it wasn’t sandstone, I know how Eyal Lalo and Jim Skelton on behalf of ShopNBC, attempt to cause confusion when presented with fact. I personally felt it needed confirmed by an expert.

With help from a fellow member of Watchlords, that is exactly what happened.

The sample was shipped to, and examined by a prominent faculty member of the Colorado School of Mines. He believes that it is a glass matrix with manmade crystals floating in it. He rated the hardness on Mohs scale at about 5.5: consistent with glass. Unfortunately, the schools directors have a policy that prohibits any documentation to accompany this finding but they routinely examine samples of materials provided by the public, but the Doctor who examined the sample is an expert with nearly 30 years in the field of geology.

IT was just a few days ago that Eyal Lalo responded on a question and answer Watchgeek thread that the dials are “Natural“. One is reminded of Mr. Lalo’s supposed “loud talks” with Dubois Depraz, a company that did not have any business relationship with IWG and Swiss labeled watches as being entirely Swiss made, another untruth revealed as Watchgeeks popped the backs off of their “Swiss” made watches to reveal movements stamped “Far East Assembly” as well as the revelation of fake diamonds on the Classique womans watches marketed by both ShopNBC and Invicta.

WILL this revelation prompt someone to have a meteorite dial examined to determine if it is genuine? Are the diamonds on the bezel of the 0050 model real diamonds or crystals?

Check back for more updates as this story unfolds.

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29 Responses to “Invicta Confirms That Their ‘Natural Sandstone” Dials Are Man Made”

  1. krane11367 Says:

    Amazing work by some good people. A tip of the cap to everyone involved.

    These findings are not surprising to anyone who has followed IWG’s shenanigans over the course of the past six months or so. The big question is this:

    After so many scam revelations, why would anyone spend another penny of their hard-earned money on any Invicta product ever again?

    All that’s left at WGs are a sad collection of weebles and value pay drones; people who actually know watches and love real watches have either been banned or just quit given the lack of content on the quickly dying shell of a blog.

    But then again – who with even the slightest bit of common sense would want to be a “Watch Geek” now?

  2. LIES ALL LIES! Says:

    Well, as predicted the most devout of Watchgeek is demanding proof and does not believe this.

    So 50mmandup this is for you directly. What proof do you require? Some one who bought an Invicta with sandstone dial broke open their watch to pull the dial to examine it. Then sent it off to another member who had it confirmed by a professional. So the professional did not put forth a document stating his findings, well would happen if he did? Possibly expose himself and his school to litigation from Invicta? Probably. Plus we all know you would just question and dismiss any letter written by anyone other than Eyal even if the professional had his letter notarized, Jesus Christ appeared and said it’s 100% true, and the professional included a copy of his degree, his college transcripts and 100 letters of recommendation. Everyone is well aware you are incapable of accepting yet another lie exposed or you do accept it and you are just in on the Invicta scam.

    Hell even Jim has distanced himself already from Invicta on the sandstone dials. I guess he got tired of being thrown under the scandal bus by Eyal lately when he tried to step in for riot control by passing off even more lies he got caught in telling.

    There is another way that is just as easy to prove this recent Invicta blunder wrong. Simply take one of your sandstone dial watches apart and have a professional examine it as well. You make fun of GNM/Mr EXE but he stepped up and put his money where his mouth was because he felt it was the right thing to do to make Invicta customers aware they got conned too. You can reverse it by doing the same and if the professional conclusions are in conflict with SloMo and GNM.

    So put your money where your mouth is 50mm because GNM sure as shit did.

  3. krane11367 Says:

    Lies,

    Well done.

    50mm, you can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk? Prove those gentlemen wrong – do what they did. Tear your watch up and take it to an expert.

    Oh, I forgot – S. Fingers and Davis are the only “experts” you need, even though they are amateurs.

    Sad.

  4. darksider Says:

    recent commment by Jim Skleton now states that the Big Cheese head himself will do even more investigative work on this.

    Can we exepct another joint statement by Eyal and Dials R US that is not on official Chinese Rice paper?

    Good work by members at our site and by a dedicate professional who is lucky not to be attacked by rabid bunnies.

  5. Big P Says:

    Lets add more confusion to the soup, this has got to be a world record for fraudulent claims and practices.

    Eyal, I really don’t know what to say anymore, just admit to your bullshit ways, and take it like a fucking man!!!!!

    Jim, you can confuse the masses till your hearts content, but transparent is easy to recognize.

    Nbc, let’s stop playing pretend, and kill yourselves now, sell your ass backwards network, take a permanent vacation.

    Davis, your face says it all on the TV, “not trustworthy”.

    Watchgeeks, you guys will ALWAYS love your gods, even if their mouths speak with dripping feces.

    That fake sandstone, I PROMISE ALL OF YOU, will not be the last infraction by Incrapta, there is still 4 months left in the calender year.

    Lastly, all good and bad things must come to an end, and all the geeks in geekland won’t be able to save their TV watch brand from final punishment, losers.

  6. krane11367 Says:

    Dark,

    It’s amazing…the worst CS in the watch world, hyped diamonds that were in fact crystals, fake sandstone, highly touted D/D Speedways that didn’t work (for $1,000, no less), banning anyone that speaks the truth on the blog, wrong watches shipped on Sunday Run, moldy plastic cases that are the focus of a lawsuit, and on, and on, and on, and on. Any cursory glance at WG on any given day reveals at least four of five serious complaints from one of their own customers.

    Yet, the WGs scream for more.

    If there is a dimmer bunch of rubes on this mortal coil, keep them away from me, too.

    Any one of these problems would make a sane person go, “Hmm..I think I’ll buy another brand.” Instead, these tasteless morons just scream “bigger bigger! WGs stand for goodness!!”

    A national journalist friend of mine just read WGs and two other blogs, and he told me he’s gonna follow up on all this. And trust me, it’s not gonna be pretty. This is gonna get even better in the months to come. Serves ’em right; if Skel and Davis are embarrassed now, what’s coming ’round the corner is gonna be so much worse.

    Not like they don’t deserve it or anything.

  7. betterskills Says:

    Maybe Poor Tools Require Better Skills will get a shoutout in some national press!

  8. Big P Says:

    The scarabs are a scattering, and multiplying faster than a hunk of steak fat sizzling on a metal garbage can lid in the middle of July.

    Folks, you think his jaw hurts now…the scent of his breath is enough to make a grown man cry!

    Watchgeeks are cursed beings, created of falsehoods and twisted misrepresented facts, they would stick a hot coal up their ass if their watch gods said they need to, watchgeeks are talented at TV watches, and the opposite when it comes to REAL watches.

    Everybody!!! let’s fucking go to the local beach, and pick up random items along the way, make a fucking watch out of what you found, guess what?, you got an Invicta baby!!!!

  9. Mr. Sandstone Says:

    invictas sandstone is as real as land o lakes deli cheese

    i can craft a better watch with the schmeggma between my balls and the lint from my belly button

    next month, invicta will be accused of selling fake flame fusion crystals, whats next?

  10. LIES ALL LIES! Says:

    Well it’s September, lets go Invicta. What lie or horrendous quality problem will get exposed this month? It’s quite the 2010 you are having, in fact I would call it a “landmark” year actually. The beginning of the end.

  11. Big P Says:

    This is getting better by the day.

    🙂

  12. krane11367 Says:

    better and everyone involved …thanks so much. All this fact-finding is fascinating.

    Early this morning on Shop, as discovered by some WGs, of all people: An Invicta auto watch that clearly says “Officina Del Tempo” on the rotor plate. Unbelievable; the scandals, poor quality, and utter nonsense are happening on an almost daily basis at this point! It’s beyond ridiculous, but certainly not surprising. Invicta = thrown together junk with gray market parts and ridiculous MSRPs – and more false claims than at a bus stop lost and found.

  13. Big P Says:

    Skelton said last night, slopnbc has sold over 80,000 watches for their latest event, I guess this means there are 80,000 dummies thinking their receiving something special, or just another sloppy nbc fabrication.

    One never knows…do one?

  14. betterskills Says:

    Easy now for Widebody to claim anything since Slop re-wrote the webpages to hide the quantity being sold.

  15. krane11367 Says:

    There’s just one truth here: If S. Fingers, Davis, or Lalo says it?

    Take it with a grain of salt. Seems these three embellish more than a yellow marker.

  16. William Says:

    Never felt better about selling off my collection at a loss. I think a majority of Invicta on the retail market (That doesnt sell) is just there to create a market for themselves. Also, I think that a lot of the Invicta on eBay are propped there at astronomical prices for the same reason as well. I’m at my wits end with them, and it actually killed my watch collecting bug for a while. Other than that, on a good note, VIA Tim Temples facebook posts, I called Skelton a douchbag. His response, “Nice.” What a slab of bacon.

  17. Big P Says:

    It would be refreshing if Eyal and his evil crew would use their tongue for something other than…lies!

    You see, this will never happen, because it’s called “marketing tactics”, these tactics are the pinned…”scapegoat” for those dirty rotten scoundrels.

    Jimmy boy’s selling speeches and redundant jokes are starting to bore even himself to pieces, and choke himself out, his face I named, “face of repeating excrement”

    Confusious says: “one who buys from Incrapta and NBC, deserve to be a watchgeek forever”

    Jim, you look like a gerbil with a goatee and shit painted lips.

    Jill, you look like you came straight from threes company.

    Davis, I didn’t know Oscar Madison was selling watches.

    Eyal, you look like the Geico lizard, but I bet the lizard would hold more honor any day of the week next to you.

    Temple, you don’t get away so easy, you look like a cracked out wrestling manager from the 80s, who moonlights as an extraterrestrial.

  18. Disgusted Says:

    my brain cannot wrap itself around the fake accent diamonds, russian diver story, man made sandstone etc

    how can this company be on tv and brutally lie to people and there not be any ramifications????????

    somebody PLEASE answer that question for me!

  19. Tempus Fugit Says:

    Agreed: the latest update simply states that what started as something that was sourced from natural resources, was processed into a man made one in order to create the dial. At least that’s what it reads to me.

    (Note: Pergo is a brand and Laminate flooring does contain wood material)

    Agreed: prior to today, stating that the dials were natural, and showing a stone as a sample of what was going into the dial, with comments that a slice or section of the dial was actually going into the watch, as the hosts and Invicta reps demonstrated, would lead any reasonable person to believe that a real piece of rock was going into the watch.

    I don’t think that either side of the fence is reading this last statement as a true, outright, admission of the misleading comments or trying to further the misleading comments in any way. Seems to be merely a clarification.

    I also don’t think that if the CEO of the company, its reps, or SNBC hosts, actually said “we misled our customers”, that either side of the fence would really change their view of how they feel about the company. Perhaps the fans would show further loyalty and the non-fans would question what else was “out there” that misled customers to purchase an Invicta of some type or other.

    So, other than this issue about what really was the dial made of, and the clarification provided, what continues to be the issue specifically to the dial?

  20. betterskills Says:

    I think the real issue is with customers that purchased watches with the dials who made that decision to purchase based on the implication of the brand reps and hosts that the dial was a slice of actual sandstone.

    It’s one more lie that continues to erode any goodwill that consumers aware of the information have toward the brand.

  21. Tempus Fugit Says:

    Ok, and I think the CEO’s statement clarifies that the stone is not a piece of rock – which was one of my points in the previous reply.
    What would you suggest be the next step, if any?
    Maybe: customers be allowed to return the watch if they feel they’ve been misled, no questions asked, even if they sized it or the 30 day return rule has expired?
    What if the CEO’s statement is taken as a measure of goodwill and generates a customer who is OK with the dial composition?

  22. betterskills Says:

    Not really – it doesn’t completely address the finding of three distinct “grain” patterns and a lack of depth in the sample provided. This suggests that, at least with the model watch sampled, that it is all man made materials.

    It’s also been revealed on other sites that the description that Mr. Lalo provided was pulled directly from the ShopNBC description of “Sandstone” so he appears, at least on the surface, to not take this issue seriously. And his description doesn’t put the “Natural” issue to bed. By his definition, glass is a natural material; steel could be considered natural. It falls short.

    As for the jilted customers; that’s tricky. IWG has reached a point where these issues just further tarnish their bruised image. Trying to make this one issue right is not enough. Sure, those jilted customers might be happy, but the real damage are the potential sales that are now lost. People are not stupid – just because the Invictards on WG heap praise on Eyal’s non-answer doesn’t mean that normal people buy it. “Processed Natural Materials” is newspeak.

    Invicta needs to look toward Fossil and Timex for a roadmap. They have to get a handle on the CS and QC issues and that probably means slowing down on completely new models and actually having a parts department. But that probably will not happen. And I’ll probably have at least a few more blogs by years end detailing new debacles.

  23. private peas Says:

    forget the sandstone crap, this is a small infraction in comparison to their other infractions

    the depraz situation was the topper, and the russian diver prior and after is some of the worst double talking invicta history lessons on the market

    i find aside from fossil etc, croton has one of the best cs/qc i have encountered

    lalo is the teflon don persay, and his army is well versed in double talk selling tactics

    something tells me invicta will get away with it all, sad but true

  24. Tempus Fugit Says:

    Ok, so the fact that the statement mentions that at some point there is sandstone material, which is then processed isn’t enough because of the 3 distinct grain patterns, which suggest that the dial is completely man made and not sourced from anything occurring in nature.
    Got it.

    For QA and CS, what levels do Fossil and Timex have that Invicta should strive for? Is there an industry standard or level that these are measure against? Aside from the BBB rating, what are the benchmarks?

    As far as slowing down, what would be a level at which the reduced volume of output would result in increased QC and CS? Do they produce less models? Less numbers of each model? I’ve never personally dealt with either, but I’m surprised that they don’t have a parts department.

    As far as damage control for this sandstone debacle, and to make things right – on this issue- the Invicta customers and loyalists have no recourse, whether they want it or not. Got it.

    I appreciate your time and views to my comments.

  25. betterskills Says:

    Sorry about the wait – this did not show up on my dashboard for some reason.

    Any manufacturing organization should have a TQM process in place. When manufacturing is outsourced, as it is with Invicta, it becomes necessary to work with suppliers that will adhere to a prescribed process improvement methodology. There are a variety to choose from; CMMi, Six Sigma, etc. But it also requires them to be involved in the manufacture at that level – not after the fact. I do know that Fossil also outsources work but I’ve also read that they tend to own an interest in the factories that they are outsourcing to; not sure about Timex. I do know that the volume of complaints and issues do not exist with either brand and it is a fallacy to blame Invictas bad press on their “high profile” which is an argument I’ve heard in the past. They suffer from serious design flaws. I suspect that their design team really doesn’t have a background in watch making; that they have CNC and CAD people that could just as easily work at OCC or some other design house. And before you come back with a comment like, “Well if you don’t know, how can you say” realize that again, this is Invicta hiding behind a wall. When an organization is so secretive, it usually suggests a nefarious aims; and Invicta getting busted time and time again seems to suggest just that.

    A slowing down of new models would enable them to “get it right” on the existing models. Just take a look at WGs. Complaint after complaint of hands falling off, poor finishing, design defects – like the SAN OQ screws with threads that were too small – reveal a pattern of untested and prototypes. They should only produce as many models as they can get right.

  26. Tempus Fugit Says:

    BS, appreciate your weighing in.

    I did a quick review last night and found that Fossil and Timex have an A and A+ rating. Renato and Invicta both have Fs; couldn’t find one for Croton.

    The correlation between less volume / better quality doesn’t seem to hold its vailidity, as Invicta and Renato demonstrate. Did you know that there are over 196000 variants of the Lupah alone??

    I think this would make for an excellent new entry: volume vs quality. I’m sure your title would be better and am positive this type of write-up, by you, would be well read and responded to. Just a thought.

  27. betterskills Says:

    Ah – but each ‘variety’ of Lupah is based on an established model. Again, with no insight into the secretive inner workings, it’s hard to tell how much R&D was spent on that first model. Each successive version – except for that round one, the Bubble? – share the same case design, just on a different scale.

    As for Renato, I don’t follow the brand. I know a lot of people love them but I find them to be obnoxious and gaudy.

    Go suggestion for a topic. I’ll definitely research it.

  28. Big P Says:

    This is really a quite simple deduction, Invicta makes WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYyyyyyyy too many watches.

    Invicta has been DISHONESSSSSTTTTTT with their customer base on much more than 1 occasion.

    The hosts know FULL WELL what their selling, maybe not every intricate detail, but on point for the most part.

    If you want a really DECENT BANGER $200 watch to knock around in for between $85-$130, Shopnbc is for you, overblown msrp”s?, this is also the place for you.

    Now, the SELLING TACTICS, “they”, will say anything under the sun to you in order to…..sell!!, primary goal aside, the context of what “they” say to you, all though they have to be careful, training helps, incorporating super duper embellishments directed at the customer from all directions, right!!

    People are not stupid for the most part, THE MOST PART, customers have memories, as well as audio and video, again for instance…..selling tactics, Adee Kaye’s Alon Nisimov sells his watches with carbon fiber as “NASA GRADE” carbon fiber, when in fact….it’s not!!, Invicta sells accent diamonds that appear to be glass, Skelton repeats over and over live, there’s no such thing in the watch industry as surgical grade stainless steel, blah blah, yet as a tactic, 97% of the vendors speak otherwise.

    More examples?

    Selling a Stuhrling tourbillion for a $1,000, with a measly, skimpy, 2 year warranty, holy crap!!, and saying to customers it’s an ACTUAL tourbillion, right!!, with or without fortune cookies?

    2010, the year of the “swiss parts movt”, the year of the “far east version ronda or isa”, plastic case suit, what an amazing web they weaved themselves, bottom line…..sell!!

    SELL SELL SELL FUCKING BLOODY SELL!!!!!!!!!!!

    TV watches, especially those “TV house brands”, present deals made to look incredible, impossible, well folks, these deals WOULDN’T be possible if more than a few corners weren’t cut, and a few hundred lies weren’t told!!

    🙂

  29. funky feet Says:

    wut kills me iz nbc dont sell any fer real nice watchez anywayz

    invicta who?


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